[Christians and Atheists are Both Anti-Mystical, Mt. Athos - a Spiritual Fortress, Spirituality as a Technology, The Pitfalls of Mysticism, Catastrophic Civilizational Reset, and Much More Heresy!]
Really fascinating stuff. Listening to you two talk is like drinking from a firehose.
Orthopractic technemysticism is a concept deserving of further development. Strip the occult aspect away - all the veiled language and such so beloved of Fuccanelli and the like (btw was that the green language you were trying to think of?) - and you've got the basis for an entirely new science.
I wonder if part of the reason shamanically inspired peasant uprisings tend to get crushed is precisely because they're led by madmen who don't actually know what they're doing. Lacking a tradition, they're self taught; thus, their work contains flaws, which ultimately prove fatal.
On a similar note, that was an interesting tidbit about the Crowley/blitzkrieg connection. Seems like WWII and possibly WWI may have been at least in part a result of those shamanic energies having been unleashed, just as the 30 Years War, Boxer Rebellion, Ghost Dance, and so on. Already knew about the Thule Society and their tutelage of Mustache Man in rhetorical techniques, but the tactical doctrine connection to esoteric inspiration really clinches it.
Don't even get me started on the sciences, e.g. Jack Parsons.
Interesting. A lot of what I heard in this podcast seemed familiar to me. Unexpected breakthrough into a higher reality, attempt to investigate Russian Orthodoxy, being turned off by the kazennye dimensions of the piety and how badly some of the doctrines refuted my initial premises for studying them (the church disdaining the imagination and asserting that all amateur visions come from demons … including the visions that told me to become a Christian). In my case, ineffectual attempts at mysticism (including the Monroe tapes you mention, albeit found via in-hindsight-disgusting solipsism guru Steve Pavlina) preceded the breakthrough but the mysticism had no real goal besides lucid dreaming, which I suppose I felt interested in from the beginning because of the fundamental disenchantment I was experiencing in waking life, so a more-real solution to that problem was provided.
The ensuing years of struggle between dogmatic and mystical dimensions of Christianity have been helpful. My own reading of the Philokalia was different from yours, I assumed that the secret yoga technique (‘lowering the mind into the heart’) is not fully documented in the text, but the struggle against imperfection in daily life is something that trains discernment to open one’s mind to the immaterial realm with less risk of delusion. (And, in the end, my reasoning was like this: discernment is something I *must* train since my mind *is* open to the supernatural, and by closing it I would be making a deliberate and evil decision to turn myself into an Ahrimanic drone, either of the secular or churched variety.) I suppose I ought to take the various events I’ve experienced start of 2023 (seeing your Substack open the mysticism topic being a minor one relative to the others) as a signal to put more effort into the mystical side of things.
Oh yes. It would have been interesting to figure out if the trucker convoys in Canada were shamanically coordinated. Some attendees reported an almost pentecostal experience e.g. Albertans and French-only Québecers who would ordinarily not give each other the time of day calmly getting along. The government’s inability to predict the thing and reaction to hysterically look for foreign players throwing around giant piles of money also speaks to coordination on a plane not entirely material.
I think the cheering flip side of a Western order that thoroughly infiltrates and co-opts any conventional political organization is that, imagining it has total control, the government will be horrifically blindsided by any movement that, for better or worse, is a ‘coincidence’ or supernaturally coordinated set of individuals doing what they believe in. All the more argument for spiritual practice not aimed at spicy experiences so much as removing barriers and self-deceptions inhibiting one’s truest self as created by God.
I am Catholic and growing up my grandparents and their church friends would hold prayer meetings where they prayed together, sang, chanted and prayed over each other which often led to the person being prayed over falling into a trance of some kind. I THINK they were trying to become one with the Holy Spirit in order to be healed...or something like that.
Was it the Holy Spirit or some other entity...who knows. But my grandparents were well known for these “prayer meetings” and Catholics in search of healing would come from other churches to be healed in these meetings, so I THINK they were “good” at what they were doing.
My grandparents were what I thought of as strict Catholics, going to mass on all the holy days of obligation and at least twice a week, if not more. They also did missionary work in other countries every year and other charity in our town.
So I guess because of these early experiences it never occurred to me that Catholicism lacked mysticism. It’s definitely there among the congregation as I experienced it, but not officially. I get it. Ive honestly never heard any priest preach against it either, just fyi.
So because it’s not there officially we are all left to figure it out on our own, as you and Harrison both said. What I saw growing up was just my grandparents trying to figure it out on their own...which I’d never really understood before listening to y’all talk about mysticism.
The movements are not all futile. The spiritualists brought society forward in terms of abolition, securing, at great pain, the vote for women, the democratization of age, sex , philosophical and religious diversity. Their main practice was meditation coupled with 'sitting' with mediums, healers, etc. A kind of chemicalization, and/or transference takes place. Advanced energies are attracted and act as guides and transmitters...a cooperative advancement aimed at assisting all humans. Reiki (Alliance-the original lineage/mentorship) operates similarly and very effectively. They go into 'no mind'. If not able to still what the Thai Buddhists of my acquaintance call the 'monkey mind' (the chattering one that likes to be pre-eminent), they simply lovingly pat in on the head and move on into a state of compassionate regard. Setting the mind aside and not trying seems to be the common denominator for my transcendent experiences (mocking all my attempts at 'doing' and 'understanding'). The experiences then inform the logic. Right and Left hemispheres begin to move from a confrontational, polarized state to finding the cooperative, full-brained 'fit'. Evolutionary potential begins to be apprehended more rapidly from there. A variety of means, each fitted to the seeker can be used. It's not prescriptive. Non-seekers also wake on their soul 'schedule'. Why we may not see it on a societal level, it is always operative. The hundredth monkey and all... Thanks for a thoughtful discussion. Too many thoughts perhaps... ;-)
I hate to hear you guys struggling with this subject so much!
I am no expert in mysticism, but my teacher knew a lot about it and spoke about it often.
I think you would have SO much more to talk about (on this topic anyway) if you were more familiar with Hubbard's work.
We have the more or less open magic of Vedic times, and the hidden but very potent magic of ancient Egypt. We have the magicians of China. We have the Three Magi at the time of Christ. And the tradition of practicing magicians or psychics at the time of the Norman Conquest and earlier (Merlin).
This whole level of human experience WAS suppressed as Europe became more and more the dominant culture. Since then it has been considered sinful, wicked, forbidden, vulgar, savage or worthless by most dominant groups. That did force anyone who was interested in those activities underground and into communicating in cryptic forms.
Are we programmed to turn away from such subjects? Absolutely! And Hubbard found out just how extensive that programming has been. It goes way back. Leadership has wanted to stamp it out for a very long time.
Outside of the serious work of people like Hubbard and Courtney Brown, we have a variety of people who have "fallen into" unusual psychic experiences through NDEs (mostly) and react in a wide variety of different ways. See Anthony Chene's films on YouTube.
I have also met many fervent Christians who have had experiences, totally believe in the power of prayer, and are moved to significant degrees of devotion to their religious groups. But they wouldn't classify themselves as interested in mysticism, and might consider it the work of the Devil.
Thank you for this!
Much appreciated, as a recent convert to Orthodoxy.
Especially like your expression of the judgement that most simple people are attracted to religion for the moral code, more than the theology.
Really fascinating stuff. Listening to you two talk is like drinking from a firehose.
Orthopractic technemysticism is a concept deserving of further development. Strip the occult aspect away - all the veiled language and such so beloved of Fuccanelli and the like (btw was that the green language you were trying to think of?) - and you've got the basis for an entirely new science.
I wonder if part of the reason shamanically inspired peasant uprisings tend to get crushed is precisely because they're led by madmen who don't actually know what they're doing. Lacking a tradition, they're self taught; thus, their work contains flaws, which ultimately prove fatal.
On a similar note, that was an interesting tidbit about the Crowley/blitzkrieg connection. Seems like WWII and possibly WWI may have been at least in part a result of those shamanic energies having been unleashed, just as the 30 Years War, Boxer Rebellion, Ghost Dance, and so on. Already knew about the Thule Society and their tutelage of Mustache Man in rhetorical techniques, but the tactical doctrine connection to esoteric inspiration really clinches it.
Don't even get me started on the sciences, e.g. Jack Parsons.
Interesting. A lot of what I heard in this podcast seemed familiar to me. Unexpected breakthrough into a higher reality, attempt to investigate Russian Orthodoxy, being turned off by the kazennye dimensions of the piety and how badly some of the doctrines refuted my initial premises for studying them (the church disdaining the imagination and asserting that all amateur visions come from demons … including the visions that told me to become a Christian). In my case, ineffectual attempts at mysticism (including the Monroe tapes you mention, albeit found via in-hindsight-disgusting solipsism guru Steve Pavlina) preceded the breakthrough but the mysticism had no real goal besides lucid dreaming, which I suppose I felt interested in from the beginning because of the fundamental disenchantment I was experiencing in waking life, so a more-real solution to that problem was provided.
The ensuing years of struggle between dogmatic and mystical dimensions of Christianity have been helpful. My own reading of the Philokalia was different from yours, I assumed that the secret yoga technique (‘lowering the mind into the heart’) is not fully documented in the text, but the struggle against imperfection in daily life is something that trains discernment to open one’s mind to the immaterial realm with less risk of delusion. (And, in the end, my reasoning was like this: discernment is something I *must* train since my mind *is* open to the supernatural, and by closing it I would be making a deliberate and evil decision to turn myself into an Ahrimanic drone, either of the secular or churched variety.) I suppose I ought to take the various events I’ve experienced start of 2023 (seeing your Substack open the mysticism topic being a minor one relative to the others) as a signal to put more effort into the mystical side of things.
Nice episode today! Any suggestions on further reading for spiritual techniques?
Oh yes. It would have been interesting to figure out if the trucker convoys in Canada were shamanically coordinated. Some attendees reported an almost pentecostal experience e.g. Albertans and French-only Québecers who would ordinarily not give each other the time of day calmly getting along. The government’s inability to predict the thing and reaction to hysterically look for foreign players throwing around giant piles of money also speaks to coordination on a plane not entirely material.
I think the cheering flip side of a Western order that thoroughly infiltrates and co-opts any conventional political organization is that, imagining it has total control, the government will be horrifically blindsided by any movement that, for better or worse, is a ‘coincidence’ or supernaturally coordinated set of individuals doing what they believe in. All the more argument for spiritual practice not aimed at spicy experiences so much as removing barriers and self-deceptions inhibiting one’s truest self as created by God.
I am Catholic and growing up my grandparents and their church friends would hold prayer meetings where they prayed together, sang, chanted and prayed over each other which often led to the person being prayed over falling into a trance of some kind. I THINK they were trying to become one with the Holy Spirit in order to be healed...or something like that.
Was it the Holy Spirit or some other entity...who knows. But my grandparents were well known for these “prayer meetings” and Catholics in search of healing would come from other churches to be healed in these meetings, so I THINK they were “good” at what they were doing.
My grandparents were what I thought of as strict Catholics, going to mass on all the holy days of obligation and at least twice a week, if not more. They also did missionary work in other countries every year and other charity in our town.
So I guess because of these early experiences it never occurred to me that Catholicism lacked mysticism. It’s definitely there among the congregation as I experienced it, but not officially. I get it. Ive honestly never heard any priest preach against it either, just fyi.
So because it’s not there officially we are all left to figure it out on our own, as you and Harrison both said. What I saw growing up was just my grandparents trying to figure it out on their own...which I’d never really understood before listening to y’all talk about mysticism.
Here's one for you. What if you can do it with your eyes open and conscious?
Throat chanting helps.
Off topic, I just watched, listened and danced to
Отава Ё – Сумецкая (русские частушки под драку) Otava Yo - russian couplets while fighting
https://youtu.be/0JQ0xnJyb0A
People worth saving!
The movements are not all futile. The spiritualists brought society forward in terms of abolition, securing, at great pain, the vote for women, the democratization of age, sex , philosophical and religious diversity. Their main practice was meditation coupled with 'sitting' with mediums, healers, etc. A kind of chemicalization, and/or transference takes place. Advanced energies are attracted and act as guides and transmitters...a cooperative advancement aimed at assisting all humans. Reiki (Alliance-the original lineage/mentorship) operates similarly and very effectively. They go into 'no mind'. If not able to still what the Thai Buddhists of my acquaintance call the 'monkey mind' (the chattering one that likes to be pre-eminent), they simply lovingly pat in on the head and move on into a state of compassionate regard. Setting the mind aside and not trying seems to be the common denominator for my transcendent experiences (mocking all my attempts at 'doing' and 'understanding'). The experiences then inform the logic. Right and Left hemispheres begin to move from a confrontational, polarized state to finding the cooperative, full-brained 'fit'. Evolutionary potential begins to be apprehended more rapidly from there. A variety of means, each fitted to the seeker can be used. It's not prescriptive. Non-seekers also wake on their soul 'schedule'. Why we may not see it on a societal level, it is always operative. The hundredth monkey and all... Thanks for a thoughtful discussion. Too many thoughts perhaps... ;-)
i recently reconnected with ACIM through michael mirdad.
I hate to hear you guys struggling with this subject so much!
I am no expert in mysticism, but my teacher knew a lot about it and spoke about it often.
I think you would have SO much more to talk about (on this topic anyway) if you were more familiar with Hubbard's work.
We have the more or less open magic of Vedic times, and the hidden but very potent magic of ancient Egypt. We have the magicians of China. We have the Three Magi at the time of Christ. And the tradition of practicing magicians or psychics at the time of the Norman Conquest and earlier (Merlin).
This whole level of human experience WAS suppressed as Europe became more and more the dominant culture. Since then it has been considered sinful, wicked, forbidden, vulgar, savage or worthless by most dominant groups. That did force anyone who was interested in those activities underground and into communicating in cryptic forms.
Are we programmed to turn away from such subjects? Absolutely! And Hubbard found out just how extensive that programming has been. It goes way back. Leadership has wanted to stamp it out for a very long time.
Outside of the serious work of people like Hubbard and Courtney Brown, we have a variety of people who have "fallen into" unusual psychic experiences through NDEs (mostly) and react in a wide variety of different ways. See Anthony Chene's films on YouTube.
I have also met many fervent Christians who have had experiences, totally believe in the power of prayer, and are moved to significant degrees of devotion to their religious groups. But they wouldn't classify themselves as interested in mysticism, and might consider it the work of the Devil.
Hi,
I work with these 16 steps within the eightfold path.
~metta
Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
The Breath: A Vehicle for Liberation (Part 1)
https://www.audiodharma.org/series/1843